Here is a self-described conservative Christian who is gay counter-debating the traditional Christian view against gay marriage. It is an interesting read. It is written by Justin Lee, Executive Director of the Gay Christian Network.
https://www.gaychristian.net/justins_view.php
I believe it is imperative to try to understand everyone's view point. However, the below is my counter conversation to his well-stated points. These will be labeled: Tax Collector, 1, 2, 3, 4 and Additional Remarks.
Tax Collector:
I disagree with this argument. As Steven Curtis Chapman sings, "What About the Change?" A tax collector in Jesus's day could remain a tax collector and not be a bad person if he had a heart change and refused to lie, cheat, and steal from the people. A tax collector could remain a tax collector but just be honest. A homosexual cannot do this. If they change, they are no longer a homosexual. Therefore, this is an unequal comparison.
#1:
"I don't think anyone can deny that heterosexual sex is the way our bodies were built to function." This is an incredible thing to say and I appreciate its sincerity. That said, the comparison to a deaf person is again not an equal comparison. A deaf person has parts of their body that do not work. In fact, you could say they are deformed. A person having open heart surgery has a part of their body that is not working correctly and needs to be repaired. To make a comparison to either of these is to say that a homosexual person has something wrong with them and therefore they use their body in a way to make it work with their handicap. If homosexuality is to be compared to either of those conditions, then I need for someone to name the part of their body that isn't working correctly. ... It's either the mind (intellect) or its in their heart (soul).
#2:
I do not disagree with this point. In fact, I think the Bible book Song of Solomon supports it and could have been used effectively in his point.
#3:
"I think that sex should be reserved for marriage." Again, another incredible statement. If all gay persons took this position, I don't think there would be as many proclaiming gay people. This argument goes a long way to pull out the homosexual reference from the Bible text or to describe it as something else. All in an effort to say the Bible doesn't reference "today's homosexual" relationships. Yet, all currently popular Bible versions disagree with him. In my opinion he is reaching pretty far out there to make this argument. But, let's say he's right. The Bible still condemns sex between males, even if his argument is valid.
#4:
The rules and laws of Leviticus were made to keep the Israelites as a separate people. As is the descriptions of character in the New Testament from Jesus, Paul, and Peter regarding Christian behavior. Christians should be "a peculiar people". They should not be as everyone who doesn't believe in Jesus. Yet, to try to remove every direct or indirect reference from the Bible describing homosexuality so you can be a Christian with your homosexuality is to say you don't believe every word in the Bible and would prefer to pick and choose, which is exactly the argument made in the subsequent paragraph regarding women head coverings. Unfortunately, you can't have it both ways. You can't pick and choose what you want to believe from God's Word and condemn those who are of an opposing view telling them that they pick and choose. If you are going to say you believe in the Word of God, don't point to others as a reference. Tell me how you believe in it and what it costs you to believe, because all of us have to give up ourselves to believe completely.
Additional remarks:
The question is asked, "Why would God condemn a loving, monogamous Christ centered marriage between two people of the same sex?" My answer to this question is to ask another questions, "Why would God condemn a loving, monogamous Christ centered marriage between a man and an animal?"
Maybe I love my dog/cat/sheep and God commands me to love it and care for it and it provides me with attention and love in return. I am loyal to it and don't pet any other animals. I cannot find any verses in the Bible that tell me I can't be in a relationship with my animal or that I can't marry it. So, why can't I marry it?
I don't marry it because it is unnatural. It's not the way I'm designed by God to function and it destroys my purpose. In the very beginning of this conversation, this author says, "I don't think anyone can deny that heterosexual sex is the way our bodies were built to function." So he freely admits that homosexuality is unnatural. That means that it is not a part of Creation. That means it is man made. That means it is an idol, or a deliberate act of defiance, or a deliberate act of rebellion, all of which is a refusal of God's authority.
https://www.gaychristian.net/justins_view.php
I believe it is imperative to try to understand everyone's view point. However, the below is my counter conversation to his well-stated points. These will be labeled: Tax Collector, 1, 2, 3, 4 and Additional Remarks.
Tax Collector:
I disagree with this argument. As Steven Curtis Chapman sings, "What About the Change?" A tax collector in Jesus's day could remain a tax collector and not be a bad person if he had a heart change and refused to lie, cheat, and steal from the people. A tax collector could remain a tax collector but just be honest. A homosexual cannot do this. If they change, they are no longer a homosexual. Therefore, this is an unequal comparison.
#1:
"I don't think anyone can deny that heterosexual sex is the way our bodies were built to function." This is an incredible thing to say and I appreciate its sincerity. That said, the comparison to a deaf person is again not an equal comparison. A deaf person has parts of their body that do not work. In fact, you could say they are deformed. A person having open heart surgery has a part of their body that is not working correctly and needs to be repaired. To make a comparison to either of these is to say that a homosexual person has something wrong with them and therefore they use their body in a way to make it work with their handicap. If homosexuality is to be compared to either of those conditions, then I need for someone to name the part of their body that isn't working correctly. ... It's either the mind (intellect) or its in their heart (soul).
#2:
I do not disagree with this point. In fact, I think the Bible book Song of Solomon supports it and could have been used effectively in his point.
#3:
"I think that sex should be reserved for marriage." Again, another incredible statement. If all gay persons took this position, I don't think there would be as many proclaiming gay people. This argument goes a long way to pull out the homosexual reference from the Bible text or to describe it as something else. All in an effort to say the Bible doesn't reference "today's homosexual" relationships. Yet, all currently popular Bible versions disagree with him. In my opinion he is reaching pretty far out there to make this argument. But, let's say he's right. The Bible still condemns sex between males, even if his argument is valid.
#4:
The rules and laws of Leviticus were made to keep the Israelites as a separate people. As is the descriptions of character in the New Testament from Jesus, Paul, and Peter regarding Christian behavior. Christians should be "a peculiar people". They should not be as everyone who doesn't believe in Jesus. Yet, to try to remove every direct or indirect reference from the Bible describing homosexuality so you can be a Christian with your homosexuality is to say you don't believe every word in the Bible and would prefer to pick and choose, which is exactly the argument made in the subsequent paragraph regarding women head coverings. Unfortunately, you can't have it both ways. You can't pick and choose what you want to believe from God's Word and condemn those who are of an opposing view telling them that they pick and choose. If you are going to say you believe in the Word of God, don't point to others as a reference. Tell me how you believe in it and what it costs you to believe, because all of us have to give up ourselves to believe completely.
Additional remarks:
The question is asked, "Why would God condemn a loving, monogamous Christ centered marriage between two people of the same sex?" My answer to this question is to ask another questions, "Why would God condemn a loving, monogamous Christ centered marriage between a man and an animal?"
Maybe I love my dog/cat/sheep and God commands me to love it and care for it and it provides me with attention and love in return. I am loyal to it and don't pet any other animals. I cannot find any verses in the Bible that tell me I can't be in a relationship with my animal or that I can't marry it. So, why can't I marry it?
I don't marry it because it is unnatural. It's not the way I'm designed by God to function and it destroys my purpose. In the very beginning of this conversation, this author says, "I don't think anyone can deny that heterosexual sex is the way our bodies were built to function." So he freely admits that homosexuality is unnatural. That means that it is not a part of Creation. That means it is man made. That means it is an idol, or a deliberate act of defiance, or a deliberate act of rebellion, all of which is a refusal of God's authority.
1 comment:
Good counterpoints
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